Cloak & Dagger Bitcoin

Journeys to Privacy

[Lunaticoin] 

Okay, so obviously I’m not Anna, but I’ll be moderating this panel and we’re gonna be talking about privacy and starting private and how hard it is to keep that in that way. So I wanted to ask you, how was your privacy road? Did you start it being private by mistake? For example, that was my case. I started being private by mistake. It was not really fully intended and then I learned the good parts of being private and then I shielded myself. I would like to know your journey into privacy. Was it something you knew already when you started or how was it?

[Rockstar]

So yeah, I can start with this. The biggest thing for me is: privacy is a human right.

Whenever, like even in places like this, like I wouldn’t be wearing masks if there weren’t that many cameras recording. Because it’s not about the people present, but it’s about the people that are not present and then the fact that this information is forever. So whatever I think about privacy and my approach to being in public places, it’s all about preserving some of the data that’s mine. That’s really my approach as to whether it happened by mistake or yeah, like definitely my mom pushed me out of her womb and called me Rockstar – no.

No, I came out with an identity and it wasn’t the first of my identities, like online identities. And it wasn’t where it is now. I worked on it gradually. Eventually, I may even, you know, grow hair. So we will see. But yeah, it’s something that you work on and I’m glad to go into more details, you know, as this panel goes on.

[Lunaticoin] Hodlonaut. 

[Hodlonaut]

I guess I never had any idea that anyone would ever be interested in finding out who I was. I never had any desire to be recognized or known. So it was very natural for me to operate pseudonymously in Bitcoin. I think it was mainly motivated by, you know, I enjoy my privacy. I don’t have any desire to have my private life exposed to anyone. The value of privacy has definitely become much more apparent to me over the last five years. What has happened, like my personal story these last five years, it quickly became apparent to my enemies that my privacy was very valuable to me and it’s kind of been lost. I still, as Rockstar says, since the fact that there are cameras here is the main reason that I choose to wear this thing right now. That’s the gist of it, I think. 

[Lunaticoin]

Our special guest is Reckless Satoshi, creator of RoboSats. What about you, what about your journey? 

[Reckless Satoshi]

I didn’t start as pseudonymous by chance, I actually was influenced by someone called Lunaticoin, some people might know him. Actually he put a few very bad ideas on me. I think I learned by someone else already how valuable privacy was, so I started already, I think, knowing the good steps. I think it’s of course impossible to have perfect privacy. I think in the description of this panel it says, “is it possible to live under perfect OPSEC?”. I think only when you die you get to have perfect OPSEC. But you are alive, you are going to do stuff that gives away your identity.

[Lunaticoin]

I’m interested because I know a little bit more of your story, and I believe that for you privacy was like a very, very important thing from the beginning. So I believe that you took measures from the very beginning to protect yourself, is that true? 

[Reckless Satoshi] Sure, sure. 

[Lunaticoin]

Was it the same with you, or for example, in my case, as I said, it was a little bit by mistake. I had a company and I wanted to separate my Twitter persona from the CEO persona. 

[Rockstar] From the business persona. 

[Lunaticoin] Yeah, exactly. 

Imperfect Privacy

[Lunaticoin] And then I realized that as Hodlonaut was saying, yeah, this is good, this feels good. Of course I made a lot of mistakes, and of course maybe I signed up for some services using my phone number, and I was not fully prepared for that. Was it your case, or were you more reckless, or were you more like me?

[Rockstar]

No, I mean, people never do this perfectly the first time. That’s really something that everyone who is considering shielding their private identity needs to realize is you’re going to make a lot of mistakes, and then it’s okay. You know, you can kill off that identity and do another iteration and another iteration. Or you can keep living with that identity as long as there is a purpose.

Because privacy, really, the way that I see it, it will be something that will be most valuable for any of us. You look at the current world we live in, and it’s an absolute disaster. If you’re in the U.S. and you apply for any job, they’re not just asking for your resume, they’re running background checks, they’re sending you to drug tests, they’re running credit scores, stuff like that. That’s not how you treat humans. That’s not how you treat other people in a decent way. But that’s like normal.

And I understand the other approach as well, because people like our default is you’re not with masks, you’re interacting with someone with your legal name, and then there is a person on the other side who has a mask who is not using their legal name. It’s asymmetric. I definitely think with the way that the world is today, it will move more towards being structured in this way, in a private way, because, again, information wants to be free, as cypherpunks say. That’s what you’re experiencing when you try to separate identities, and you reuse, and there are these connections that pop up.

Information is being generated so fast, the world is so mad. You’re just going to get hurt by some information that you generated, like, 20 years ago. You said something, and now your enemies are taking that piece of information, twisting the context, because it’s so easy to make the connection. I just think people will start feeling more and more and more pain, and they will see that that’s the way to go. I hope we won’t live in a world where privacy is something that only super rich can afford. That it’s something that the more people have privacy, the better the world will be in which we live.

[Lunaticoin]

I believe that the moment that we’re using these things [raises his smartphone], it’s kind of like an impossible thing.

[Rockstar]

That’s a great example, because, you know, Google don’t be evil and whatnot. They collect tons of data by mistake, and then they make so much profit off of your data that the system is such that, I don’t know, the European Union finds them, that money gets collected by governments. It’s a complete mess, and you need to figure out ways to keep yourself safe and structure your life in a way that you want it structured. You want to control the information. You do not want the information to control you.

[Lunaticoin]

Before asking you, Hodlonaut, I want to say that we’re seeing how governments are going control freaks in anything we do, and related with Bitcoin, all this information that they are starting to ask in the UK is already going on, the travel rule, but it’s going to be applying to Europe soon. All these excels of information, of data sheets from people buying Bitcoin that will end up going to public agencies that at some point will be hacked. This is just governments forcing companies to store this information and putting us citizens in danger. We’re seeing this in Sweden, where a lot of these records are public, and then people are connecting the dots, and some Bitcoin crypto influencers are being attacked because it was very easy to find where they live.

So privacy is not something that weird people do and people with the aluminium hat, no? Privacy is starting to be a security thing. A security not for you, but for your beloved ones. So I think that everybody should start understanding this, that this is not just four crazy guys that are covering themselves. This should be, I think, at some point, it will be the norm. 

[Rockstar] I mean, we could still be crazy, right? 

[Lunaticoin]

Yeah, that’s true. What about, of course your story is a bit different because you basically were hunted, but even before that, were you so aware about privacy that you started as reckless, as good as you think you could have, or no?

[Hodlonaut]

Thinking back, like very far back also, I think I always had an intuitive appreciation for privacy. I never wanted to give away more information or I never wanted to give away information that didn’t seem necessary to give away. So from the very beginnings of the internet and even on bulletin board systems, I always faked my name and wrote the wrong birth address because it just seemed counter-intuitive to me to give out personal information when it didn’t make sense to me why I should do it.

But of course, when it comes to my own OPSEC, as I said, it was very obvious to me that I should use a pseudonym when I made a presence in Bitcoin. But you have to keep in mind that I never aspired to be a big account. I didn’t have an ambition with it. I was a really small account. So my OPSEC was far from perfect. It was probably decent. But you know, the moment someone started pouring serious resources into finding me, it was inevitable that they would find me. So in hindsight, I could have done a lot of things differently. But considering my former situation, I think I basically did what could have been expected of me.

[Lunaticoin]

One question I’m curious about: have you ever had somebody from outside Bitcoin reaching you, a friend, and saying, “hey, are you Rockstar? Are you the guy that is talking on podcasts?” Have you had like a moment of, “oh, fuck, I’m exposed, somebody recognized my voice.” 

[Rockstar]

Yeah, I blocked them all, you know. When you create identity, you really need to look at what are the credentials of that identity. If we, I don’t know how much time we have to get technical, but every identity that you have, you need to go with, okay, this identity has its own email, this identity has its own phone number, and then you go beyond, because a lot of people make a mistake of reusing the phone for multiple identities. Or they do not use work mode that you have on Google Pixel, so on one phone you can have two identities. Because when you start doing that, that’s all that stickiness of, say, phone numbers. You enter the phone number in Telegram and then all the people that you add find you through that.

But again, it’s something that you iterate towards and I don’t think it’s a big deal for most people. The problem becomes when you get to Hodlonaut’s level and what he suffered through is terrible. But in the end, I think even having that identity helped you.

The biggest problem really, in a paradox of privacy, is that you need to be public to promote privacy. And this is again where masks come in, where other stuff [comes in], because you need to be able to participate in discourse that relates to you. So, again, I don’t see any other way other than preserve your privacy in ways that you find you’re comfortable with.

You make mistakes, okay, you know, like fix the mistake, block a friend on a certain network, or kill off an identity and try another iteration. It’s really like what is the purpose of that identity. As long as identity is not created with malicious intent of scamming someone, hurting someone, but identity, in my case, was created to contribute on BTC-based server and support Nicholas, retweet, submit to GitHub. Hey, I love it, and like I’ll continue doing it, and if someone else doesn’t love it, that’s their right, and I accept it. But don’t be too hard on yourself. 

[Hodlonaut]

I’m just going to add to that a little bit, because I think it’s important to not fall for the fallacy that if you feel you can’t do perfect privacy, then there’s no point to even try. It’s a little bit parallel to people trying to get in shape. They start working out and aim for like seven times a week, and it doesn’t work, and then they just end up eating all the cakes and it doesn’t work out at all. Don’t stop trying just because you can’t do it perfectly. It’s much better to have imperfect privacy than no privacy at all. 

[Rockstar] That’s great advice, man. 

Can we Aspire to Perfect Privacy?

[Lunaticoin]

So I don’t know if you want to add on that Reckless, but yeah, this was going to be my my next question, it’s also the the main question of the panel. Can we aspire to something very close to perfect OPSEC?

[Reckless Satoshi]

No, I think we can’t aspire to that, but as they pointed out, we should try to start. The most difficult part, it’s starting to think about how you improve privacy. Once you are a little bit into the mindset you will sign up for a new app and then you see, oh they need my address, actually I don’t think that’s something they actually need, right? The moment you think about it you start to be more private. You don’t need to go all the way through, and probably you will never make it all the way through, but starting to think in that mindset it’s already 50 percent the way.

[Rockstar]

I actually think you can have perfect privacy as long as you’re super rich, because you can buy all the mail forwarding addresses, phone numbers. You can really get other people to do stuff for you. Just hire an assistant and then that’s the assistant in which name all your accounts are.

For me, perfection is not the goal. It’s to raise awareness of privacy and how important it is and how it can be a tool for other people to structure their life in a better way. So that they’re not pulled by their friends where you’re like, “oh, my friend now sees I’m a Bitcoiner, so I’m part of this cult that’s boiling the planet and destroying it through mining Bitcoin.” It’s just not the conversation you want to have with certain people because it’s super draining. You just can’t sustain that level of connections and then your situation becomes way easier when you properly structure your private life.Maybe your professional life. You’re one person professionally, one person with your parents, you’re one person when you’re in your church and all that thanks to how rich and fast the world today is. I really believe we’ll only survive if properly structured. So again, perfection is a good aim, but it’s not something you should kill yourself over. 

[Lunaticoin]

We are short on time, so we will be a little bit faster and this is going to be the last question. Maybe we will have even one minute for questions. It’s kind of a double question. You can choose which one you want to answer. If you had to start over again, what would you do different? This would be option A. Option B is, what advice would you give to somebody who is listening here? And still has a Twitter account maybe with his or her name and wants to start with an anon account or wants to start to create content, something like that. What’s the advice you would give them? 

[Rockstar]

So, first question, I would stay 100% in FOSS. Second question, join a project, join a group and start a new identity dedicated to that group. That’s what I did with BTC Pay Server. Then everything becomes way easier because you need those initial connections and you need people that you trust. At the end of the day, you will need to disclose your government first name, last name, to some group of people. If you join a project or a purpose or you want to start contributing in FOSS, that’s a great way to do it, fresh identity, buy a phone number, email, open a new account and then go. Maybe you end up like Hodlonaut with a bunch of followers because for you, man, it was a purpose. I also ended up with some followers, but it was because people followed my work and my journey and BTC Pay Server was a huge part of that. There is no way if I just created an account for my identity, like I could have gotten anywhere near. 

[Hodlonaut]

Yeah, the first one, I don’t know. I would probably do some things different, but I tend not to operate like that. I think under the circumstances and where I was I think I did well. On the second one, when it comes to advice, first of all don’t get demoralized. Don’t think that it’s too late or “I already gave away so much I can just stop caring” – don’t go there. Do the small things, do the obvious things. It’s so much better than doing nothing. Don’t make it easy for them basically.

[Reckless Satoshi]

I’m not sure if I would do something different. I think looking back you can always find here and there things to improve but I think my becoming pseudonymous was a good step. It was pretty well done overall. However, I’d say that if you are using your name, full name, you want to create a new identity just like Rockstar said. There are many communities, maybe you can just join some Telegram groups, some Bitcoiner groups in your city. Just start with a new nickname. It won’t be weird because everyone there will be using stupid names anyway, so you will be just one more and then you will fit right in. From that point on you just build your own let’s say reputation once again. Of course if you are a personality already you will lose that. You have to detach yourself from everything you were. 

[Lunaticoin] 

I would like to add something that I’ve been thinking lately. I was completely unseen, unknown, but bit by bit I was doing like a personal unboxing. So I’m getting out and now I’m only going with sunglasses and a hat and it’s crazy how when I’m not in front of cameras as you were saying I’m without it but some people don’t recognize me. So it’s crazy the effect, that this is a Superman effect, no? Just glasses, it changes all. This I want to connect with that we think about pseudonyms with a strange names, nicknames. I’m Lunaticoin; you know this is lunatic basically. These names: Rockstar, Hodlonaut, Reckless but there is something like an anon-set in your method.

[Reckless Satoshi] Yeah like Matt O’Dell, you would never say it’s a pseudonym.

[Lunaticoin] 

Yeah, it’s his real name or not? So this is an idea for people that want to find a pseudonym. Why not call yourself John whatever? And you just wear a disguise object that you don’t wear in your normal life, it can be a very good tool. It can be even more private than acting like Reckless for example. Just an idea.

Audience Q&A

[Lunaticoin] We have two minutes for questions so maybe one or two questions. Maybe if somebody has in the crowd for our guests. They know, they are private already.

[Rockstar] We have explained everything everyone is so private, yeah.

[Audience Question] If you have Bitcoin now and you’re not on an exchange, but people know where I want to go right now, how do I un-dox myself from my Bitcoin? What’s the easiest way?

[Lunaticoin] So, how to cancel KYC basically? 

[Rockstar] 

Yeah, so can you cut out this part of the video, is this live stream? No, money laundering is beautiful. Sell back for fiat, like get the fiat back by Bitcoin. And I’m obviously talking in, you know, metaphors, don’t do that. Hypothetically. Sorry for that direct answer, I just like, you know, I never did it, so just, it came to my head. 

[Lunaticoin] Maybe he can answer later.

[Audience Question] The top three tools for you guys that you use daily that you like most and you use? 

[Lunaticoin] Three privacy tools that you use daily that you can recommend.

[Rockstar] 

I can recommend CoverMe for phone numbers. Then you need specialized services that luckily there are no specialized services where you need like telegram accounts or… those are good. I can tell you some of my favorites privately because I don’t want everyone using them.

Proton is pretty good for emails. If not, there is a TutaNota. Again the Google Pixel phone is really good if you want to get started because you can have two identities on it like personal and work. I would really recommend you first set up a work profile and install all the apps there. You’re going to have everything separated nicely between business and personal persona. 

[Lunaticoin] Somebody else because we’re out of time.

[Reckless Satoshi] Tor Browser, Graphene and SimpleX Chat if you want to take a look at it, good app.

[Lunaticoin] Thank you. It was very nice.

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